Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Wolfy Lee

Saturday night assault?

42 posts in this topic

Ok, to be blunt here, I don't know the whole story, just saying what I saw.

But Saturday night I was coming from a panel and going down the escalator to the indoor fountains. I saw a man in a neon yellow shirt, strangling and punching another man on the stairs inbetween the escalators.

Neon shirt was throwing punches while the other guy was standing there taking them, all the while a staffer, 3 feet away, did nothing. I don't know if he even saw saw or not, but people were yelling for neon shirt to stop and he was yelling the "f-bomb". His friend escorted neon shirt out the center very quickly after he threw a few punches.

Anyone else see this? Anyone know how the 'other guy' is doing? Did anyone catch neon shirt? Why did I not see a staffer do anything about this?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I referenced this in my "Ugly" section in the "Good, Bad, and Ugly" thread. I'm not dropping names, but I do know a person who is not nice and was wearing a yellow shirt Saturday. Don't know the circumstances of that fight however. Didn't get to see his face as I was out on the walk way and saw it through the window :/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I referenced this in my "Ugly" section in the "Good, Bad, and Ugly" thread. I'm not dropping names, but I do know a person who is not nice and was wearing a yellow shirt Saturday. Don't know the circumstances of that fight however. Didn't get to see his face as I was out on the walk way and saw it through the window :/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My friend said he was there when it was going on, and he said pretty much that same thing you said. Pretty sad to see this happen at Otakon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do you know anything about the victim? It may sound dramatic, but the person I'm referencing had been causing problems on Friday and I definitely wouldn't put this past them unfortunately.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is a serious question: What would you expect the Staffer to do? He's not going to wade in there and break it up, and if he doesn't have a radio he can't call-in the cavalry. About all he could do is keep an eye out for security or a staffer with a radio while keeping tabs on the perp. All security is going to do is expel the perp and the victim is going to have to get the cops themselves. Based on your description, "yellow-shirt's" friend did what BCC Security was going to do anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My friend said he was there when it was going on, and he said pretty much that same thing you said. Pretty sad to see this happen at Otakon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, that's were my knowledge ends. The person in mind was Caucasian and had too much hair for his own good.

I do understand the staffer couldn't save the day but neither the BCC staff at the door or the staffer even said a word.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So you are justifying a brawl in the bcc that could have injured others? Time to start that name dropping or be implicated yourself.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As for the staffer doing nothing that is standard procedure among the business world. There are legal and safety issues that prevent the staffer from being able to get involved. Only the police have the ability to do that. So unless he had a radio the staffer did absolutely nothing wrong and simply fallowed the rules and laws he was required to follow.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not justifying anything, no matter who it was. Don't know where you got that from O_o

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As for the staffer doing nothing that is standard procedure among the business world. There are legal and safety issues that prevent the staffer from being able to get involved. Only the police have the ability to do that. So unless he had a radio the staffer did absolutely nothing wrong and simply fallowed the rules and laws he was required to follow.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As for the staffer doing nothing that is standard procedure among the business world. There are legal and safety issues that prevent the staffer from being able to get involved. Only the police have the ability to do that. So unless he had a radio the staffer did absolutely nothing wrong and simply fallowed the rules and laws he was required to follow.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As for the staffer doing nothing that is standard procedure among the business world. There are legal and safety issues that prevent the staffer from being able to get involved. Only the police have the ability to do that. So unless he had a radio the staffer did absolutely nothing wrong and simply fallowed the rules and laws he was required to follow.

Honestly, I didn't see it (oddly, cause I was near that area at the time), but at that point I think legality should get tossed out the window. A man is getting attacked and you're going to stand there for legal purposes? There's something seriously F---ed up with that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just for future reference, I understand that staff shouldn't be throwing themselves in the 'line of fire' for legal reasons. I just was expecting them to do something while waiting for the cops, yell or flail or....something.

I also was hoping someone who did know what exactly happened might see this and shed some light as to why or how the victim was doing. Or what happened with the assaulter.

....Just saying :x

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yellow shirt guy approached the other person and yelled at him. He started punching his face and trying to strangle him. A few con goers separated the two. The whole time the other guy had a blank expression, he could really take a punch! Afterwards I saw some people talking to the police. No idea what happened afterwards, or why someone would get beaten up at Otakon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Honestly, I didn't see it (oddly, cause I was near that area at the time), but at that point I think legality should get tossed out the window. A man is getting attacked and you're going to stand there for legal purposes? There's something seriously F---ed up with that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I had seen this guy around that time outside by the outdoor fountains. He had a metal axe with him and was hitting random objects with it. Needless to say we left very quickly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wrong in this case the Staff are require to step in I suggest that SpecOps have a sit down with all staff and go over the rules on stuff like this. You want to know which is a larger legal issue the fact that 3 staff folks stood by and did nothing now that is the bigger legal issue. Their is a reason why Otakorp and other groups carry a good size insurance policy's for these events.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As long as the police are promptly informed Otakon and the BCC have filled their legal obligation and any further action can result in punitive damages. Where I work this kind of stuff is literally drilled into our heads. Even simply accusing someone of something can result in law suits that we will lose. Our company knows from experience. Lets wait for a staff member to comment so we can have the truth put strait.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It might be best if everyone refrained from legal opinions and / or unvetted witness statements, in a forum that is accessible by potentially hostile legal counsel.

Hostile legal counsel LOVES to feed unguarded and unqualified writings to naive juries, who lap it up like mothers milk.

Just sayin'...

Been on both sides of a few major patent litigations myself, and so I know that you really don't want to use this forum to share your opinions without legal counsel.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Please guys, I'm not trying to get into a legal battle here.

I stated that being the nosy person I am, I mostly wanted to know what happened that night and why.

Like, what happened with the attacker and victim.

If someone who DOES know would like to comment.

I'm sure someone from staff has seen this and will hopefully decide on actions they will do, so can we stop the legal issues stuff?

Please and thank you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As it's almost impossible to learn on the person's condition (unless they visit or know someone on the BBS), I wouldn't worry about it. The thing with Baltimore (as with anywhere) is that most attacks are usually at random and happen for no reason. Being 1 AM, it's possible the attacker was drunk. I wouldn't ever rely on staff to jump in a fight unless they were ex-Security/Military but one you see any assault or crime start outside the BCC - Call 911 and stay out of their way. I'm glad you are a caring person that is worrying about a another person's condition, but I personally would not worry about it. I'm sure he's fine.

(Personal story of my:I was assaulted and punched off my bike last year at roughly 15 mph breaking a few bones under my left eye with my attackers never being found, as I know how it feels to be in this situation, I personally did not like telling anyone about this for a while.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Having worked security (being a formerly licenced Security guard and former Soldier in the US army)

In Maryland, Non Uprated security guards can not lay a hand on someone in order to break up a fight. Security at BBC are non uprated security guards (if you were at Otakon 2004 you probably saw me in my security guard oufit herding you guys around) As rule of thumb a security guard is there to intimidate and present the apearance of authority while maintaining communication to higer authorities who can intervene with backup from regular and special police forces. That being said if some one is beating on a con goer there are 35000 of us and 1 of him or her they aint Shizuo Hewajima or the Incredible Hulk. Seperate em with bodies swarm the idiots like army ants, and keep em seperated till real authorities arrive.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@joecrouse i was just about to say that...I used to work for CES security which is one of the security guard agencies that the BCC uses...i should know...i worked security for comic con one year....they are there for appearance to keep order...they do not pursue criminals, break up fights, etc...thats not their job...thats the job for the police...for these types of events staff can not be forced to be involved in this matter...they should notify the proper authorities...im almost positive staff doesnt go through training on how to restrain someone...if they didnt and the person got injured they and otakon would be sued...

on another note I heard that yellow shirt wasnt the aggressor but the other person technically started it...the other guy was in a rush or angry about something and bumped the guy in yellow and he fell down and the other guy looked at him and knew what happened and continued like he didnt care about knocking someone down the steps...because of it the yellow shirt guy approached him and yelled and then the fight...it just so happened that yellow shirt was a much better fighter...lol...i dont know if its true or not...but if the other guy did that i understand why he got beat up...just keeping it real...if he didnt start it then yea he didnt deserve it...im not sure about the truth i could be wrong...its just what i heard...anyone else hear something similar?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not pointing fingers on who started it or if the victim deserved it or not, I simply don't know.

But what I do know is I didn't see anything happen before I got on the escalator and while going down, a foot away from me I saw this fellow being strangled and punched by Mr.Yellow shirt.

If you trip and fall on someone though all you can do is say 'sorry',the damage is done. No need for beating a pulp out of someone.

Also 'Other guy' wasn't fighting back, simply taking the hits and saying nothing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On another note, this fellow was being strangled mind you. He could have very well been killed before police showed up.

It's just comforting to know the staff or fellow con goers got your back if this situation were to arise again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The BCC security wasn't helpful either. They were watching and laughing at the fight going on. It was kind of hard not to notice the fight if you were in the fountain area at the time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The BCC security wasn't helpful either. They were watching and laughing at the fight going on. It was kind of hard not to notice the fight if you were in the fountain area at the time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Wrong in this case the Staff are require to step in I suggest that SpecOps have a sit down with all staff and go over the rules on stuff like this. You want to know which is a larger legal issue the fact that 3 staff folks stood by and did nothing now that is the bigger legal issue. Their is a reason why Otakorp and other groups carry a good size insurance policy's for these events.

Um, sorry Scorpion, but you are WAY off here, and you do not understand the implications of what you suggest. The fact that a staffer did not step in is probably because the thing we tell every staffer repeatedly is DO NOT TOUCH. The staff is FORBIDDEN to step in, and we are reminded about this by lawyers and police every year.

Radio for help, observe, keep others away from the fray. Shout, sure. But nothing physical.

Believe me, we have many staffers who would b e all too willing to get physical, but they use thir brains first, thank goodness.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

im not saying who was wrong or right...what im saying is that i've heard this story a lot and no one seems to know what really happened and how it started yet making yellow shirt seem to be the worse...or the one who started it...theres a difference between a accidental bump and apologizing and someone storming away angry bumping into someone...seeing and know that a person just fell down a few stairs and just saying nothing and walking away...he could have been injured as well...outside looking in it may seem harsh what happened next...but put yourself in his shoes...i would be heated too and probably would have beat him up too if i was knocked down some stair...its a fight..its not about fighting back...when your fighting your fight your not thinking about exchanging even blows thats ridiculous lol...im glad he didnt take it far enough to kill anyone tho cause this situation doesnt call for murder but if this is how it started i can see why this was the outcome. again i have no clue what story is true...before we make people out to be a monster....as for BCC security...when i was working there the only people who was trained to react are the police...security guards there are not trained for that

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

theres a difference between a accidental bump and apologizing and someone storming away angry bumping into someone...seeing and know that a person just fell down a few stairs and just saying nothing and walking away...he could have been injured as well...outside looking in it may seem harsh what happened next...but put yourself in his shoes...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ah, how unfortunate...

but I understand why the staffer didn't do anything to draw attention.

It's kind of the same way in schools too.

When there's a fight in the classroom, as a teacher my primary concern is the safety of the students in the classroom, and to evacuate them from the classroom if things get out of hand.

It isn't my job to ram my body between the two rock'em-sock'ems to break them up, because things can be misinterpreted big time once there's any physical contact (students might testify that I hit the kids, or that I joined the fight etc).

It definitely feels like it goes against common sense, but that's just how the world is ~~;;

(plus really angry people are completely out of their mind. You don't know how far they'll go.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi, everyone.

Speaking both as a member of the Otakorp Board of Directors and as a Department Head in the Access Control division, I want to chime in with a few points here:

1. If you saw this incident on Saturday night, please PM me with any details you can remember. If you'd rather not, I understand. We're looking into the matter and discussing how we can prevent and react to such incidents in the future - both as a matter of policy and as a matter of response to incidents taking place.

2. Please note that Otakon's policy for our staff is "don't touch." As Jim mentioned above, there are serious legal ramifications that have to be considered if we become physically involved in something - this includes, but is not limited to, stepping into the middle of a fistfight. We take the safety and security of our membership and our event very seriously, and have plans and policies in place to help ensure that everyone has a good time and can enjoy themselves.

Beyond "don't touch," the policy is to allow the appropriate authorities - BCC Public Safety, BPD, etc - to respond to such incidents. Our staff can radio for help, or otherwise assist, but in serious situations we must defer to the experience and training of the professionals alongside whom we work.

Once again, please let us know if you see something. Though we are on the lookout when we're wandering through the halls, there are only several hundred of us, whereas there are 32,000 or so of you all. If you have any concerns, please PM me or let me know. Thank you!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm sorry to disagree with you Jim and Meredith, the moral law out ways the legal law and trust me if the person who got beaten up and ended up in the Hospital then I'm pretty sure right now we would be talking about their will no longer be any Otakon do to the law suite said person is bring against in the following order Otakorp,City of Baltimore,The BCC and the Security Staff.

I'm pretty sure if you ask your lawyers they will tell you in some case it's legal required to break up the fight. Further more if the reports that have been posted about both Staff and BCC Security "Standing around doing nothing" leaves Otakorp open to said law suite. Their is a reason why Cons carry such a large Innsurance Policy the question should be asked why did the staff let both parties leave after the folks step in and broke it up. Shouldn't staff have at least held both till the proper law enforcement was called.

While I understand the policy you have in place and have worked SpecOps myself I also understand that there are times and events that the Staff must step in this is one of the case's.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
While I understand the policy you have in place and have worked SpecOps myself I also understand that there are times and events that the Staff must step in this is one of the case's.

Err, no, sorry. The policy is, has been, and always will be, do not touch. Could more have been done? We are always looking to improve. At the end of the day, our staff are volunteers. We give policies and guidance at the beginning of the weekend, and we do what we can, but until you've been in a situation like this one - I haven't, personally - you can't say "should have done" or "I would have done." We have asked our counsel about this throughout the years as we've grown. We've worked with the BPD and other local authorities to develop our policies - those for you, the attendees, printed in the program guide; and those for us, the staff, kept internally.

Even in cases where the aggression is toward a staffer, the directive is stay safe, and to alleviate the situation rather than attempting to engage. It means get out of reach, call for assistance, and other non-aggressive responses. Adding aggression to an already emotionally-charged situation is never a good idea. In this case, one of the two parties' friends stepped in, broke it up and got the two people apart, and then they left the premises together, at which point it's a matter for BPD to address. Holding them around while waiting for BPD could have escalated the situation even further.

As I mentioned, we're taking this very seriously and are looking into what happened, but the policy for Otakon staff is not to become directly involved, and that won't change any time soon.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm pretty sure if you ask your lawyers they will tell you in some case it's legal required to break up the fight. Further more if the reports that have been posted about both Staff and BCC Security "Standing around doing nothing" leaves Otakorp open to said law suite.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm sorry to disagree with you Jim and Meredith, the moral law out ways the legal law and trust me if the person who got beaten up and ended up in the Hospital then I'm pretty sure right now we would be talking about their will no longer be any Otakon do to the law suite said person is bring against in the following order Otakorp,City of Baltimore,The BCC and the Security Staff.

I'm pretty sure if you ask your lawyers they will tell you in some case it's legal required to break up the fight. Further more if the reports that have been posted about both Staff and BCC Security "Standing around doing nothing" leaves Otakorp open to said law suite. Their is a reason why Cons carry such a large Innsurance Policy the question should be asked why did the staff let both parties leave after the folks step in and broke it up. Shouldn't staff have at least held both till the proper law enforcement was called.

While I understand the policy you have in place and have worked SpecOps myself I also understand that there are times and events that the Staff must step in this is one of the case's.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

anyone see what happen on Friday night? at the main entrance to the con i heard a loud smack i kept walking up the stairs my friend stopped and watched it. he said a man hit a woman and was then tackled by like 5 security personal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Irrespective of lawsuits, there's the physical danger. There was a fist fight in Japan a few weeks back and a third party jumped in to separate the two. On of the fighters knifed the third party in the back. Wading into a fight is never a smart option.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This was drilled into our heads as Gofers by Gofer Ops AND by Otakorp's lawyer when he gave us his spiel: THOU SHALT NOT TOUCH A MEMBER AND THOU SHALT NOT LET A MEMBER TOUCH YOU. Of course, they were speaking about INTENTIONAL contact, not incidental contact. I have no doubt the same rules apply to Staff as they do to Gofers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

anyone see what happen on Friday night? at the main entrance to the con i heard a loud smack i kept walking up the stairs my friend stopped and watched it. he said a man hit a woman and was then tackled by like 5 security personal

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites