Is "old school" anime still kicking today? Options

[aquamarine]

In light of my admitted rejuvenated interest in series such as Astro Boy, Cyborg 009, Black Jack, etc., I wished to discuss something that has been bugging me as of late.

It is common knowledge to say that there are a number of television series, films, live-action dramas, and more, that have been taken from the Japanese culture and pushed into the American "otaku" canon of sorts. The names of these various works are legendary to those who know, and mostly strong names to even those who don't. One example, of course, would be Neon Genesis Evangelion. But you have to remember that there are plenty of other series that pre-date this psychological marvel, such as Cutie Honey, Lupin III, Astro Boy (1980s), etc.

But the real question I have to ask is... Examining the amount of released DVDs, both cut and uncut versions, and the time period in which they are released... Are the "old school" anime series predating the mid-1990s still getting the respect that they deserve in an age where CG graphics are common place, and in some circles, actions still seem to speak louder than words in any sense of plot? True, Lupin III and Astro Boy and still recognizable characters in today's world of American "otaku" culture, but you have to admit that the majority of today's fans will want to take a picture of a Kenshin cosplayer sooner than a casual-looking thief (if more modern in the sense of networking is concerned.)

It seems to me that the "old school" anime tends to be shunted away from the DVD rack and download sites because of their lack of popularity in the American "otaku" culture. My first guess is because of graphic value, which is simply an effect of time itself. But then again, you have revived films like Metropolis and the production of manga such as Astro Boy and Cyborg 009 into modern-day anime happening in recent years, so that cannot be entirely true. Only if what I hear is true, due to scheduling differences or disinterest, these types of series still seem to lack widely in popularity compared to those that are considerably more modern and new.

So, why are the American "otaku" (and I use this term lightly) more inclined to buy the newest graphic novels based on modern series, and not the "classics" instead? These are supposedly the stories that we grew up with, and are strong enough to touch us all in different ways. So, you can't say that some of these "old school" anime series don't have some kind of heart underneath it all. So, what's the gimmick?

I hope I made sense of this post. If it seems confusing, I'd be glad to clear it up for anyone. Also, remember that much of what I say is purely opinion (and likely full of generalizations made from what I've observed through the years).

[.Schala.]

Well, Ranma 1/2 is still awesome. That started in the later 80's.

Personally, I don't watch a lot of older anime (70's-80's) because I don't like the typical art. I find the art style to be rather...ugly. Unless the story is really amazing, and can distract me from the art style, I don't watch older anime.

Then again, I really don't watch much anime anymore anyway. I'm not much into mecha anime either, so that knocks off quite a bit. I have seen Project A-ko, and I just wasn't thrilled with it. It didn't really grasp me. *shrug*

But I did love Unico when I was little. ^^0

[Rio Takeuchi]

I agree with Sailor Wicca, the quality of art in old old anime is a lot worse than the newer ones, so the new ones appeal more to the American "otaku." I think that's the main reason, really, and I suppose the plots weren't good enough to keep them hooked.

Ranma 1/2 though is awesome, as she says, even though it's old, because Rumiko Takahashi is like, amazing xD

[TeeTylerToe]

it's like the iron triangle in civics. the distributors (adv, geneon, manga, etc.) are releasing things like hellsing, witch hunter robin, and noir, and stuff. I think that's what the american otaku is following, and it's the same with the fansubbers. the fansubbers, and the distributors are going after the exact same releases. so yes, I think less attention is being paid to the entire body of anime, while more attention is being paid to the newer crop. unfortunately the new stuff isn't all neon genesis evangelion, or full metal alchemist, or berserk, or escaflowne. a lot of the new stuff that's being brought over isn't as good as some of the things that haven't yet been brought over.

[.Schala.]

it's like the iron triangle in civics. the distributors (adv, geneon, manga, etc.) are releasing things like hellsing, witch hunter robin, and noir, and stuff. I think that's what the american otaku is following, and it's the same with the fansubbers. the fansubbers, and the distributors are going after the exact same releases. so yes, I think less attention is being paid to the entire body of anime, while more attention is being paid to the newer crop. unfortunately the new stuff isn't all neon genesis evangelion, or full metal alchemist, or berserk, or escaflowne. a lot of the new stuff that's being brought over isn't as good as some of the things that haven't yet been brought over.

True. I've watched some episodes of the newer releases (Gunslinger Girl, Burst Angel) and I thought they were incredibly boring. I didn't even finishing watching the first dvd of Gunslinger Girl because it was so boring. Actually, I don't think I finished the first dvd of Burst Angel either....

[iserlohn]

I agree with Sailor Wicca, the quality of art in old old anime is a lot worse than the newer ones,

I disagree completely. Art from the older days may be simpler (fewer lines to have to hand draw for each cel vs. doing one model in the computer and manipulating points), but it is still beautiful in its own way.

[Yujinbito]

As with anything, many older anime series are forgotten because their innovations have become so standard that they hold little interest for generations that can watch what came after. This is particularly apparent in anime (as opposed to, say, music) because it's so strongly a commercial product and so directly wired into appeasing the current market's tastes that it doesn't always age so well.

These are supposedly the stories that we grew up with, and are strong enough to touch us all in different ways.

Most of the people who form the body of 'American anime fandom' actually didn't grow up with what you consider classic series. Some of us had Ranma 1/2, Akira, and Robotech as our cornerstone pieces; 'classic' series like Lupin III and Gundam were more legends than they were classics, because they weren't easily available, even fansubbed. And then there are people whose "classics" are Evangelion or Gundam Wing or Escaflowne. And so on, and so on.

That being said, I disagree: I don't believe that the classic series are being ignored; especially not by the "download" sites. One fansub group has recently started subbing the original Galaxy Express 999 series. Work has been restarted on subbing Legend of Galactic Heroes. There's a very prominent bittorrent site that specifically maintains seeds for all of Future Boy Conan. As for commercial companies, Rumiko Takahashi's more obscure works like Mermaid Forest are still being released. Animeigo puts a ridiculous amount of time, money, and care into ultra-high-quality releases of really old series like Macross, Urusei Yatsura, and Kimagure Orange Road. And some company recently announced that it was going to release, on DVD, the dubbed versions of (I think) Astro Boy and Kimba the White Lion.

Finally, we probably just hear less about people watching the classics because they're old news and therefore there's less to say about them.

So have no fear; I think the classics are less in danger of slipping away than you think. (IMG:/biggrin.gif)

[Jimm]

Yea I don't think classics are really passing their time, so to speak.
Lupin III is one of my favorite shows. I think you see more fansubbed newer stuff simply because more newer stuff hasn't been licensed yet.

[iserlohn]

I think you see more fansubbed newer stuff simply because more newer stuff hasn't been licensed yet.

Actually it's more like "New stuff is easier to find on Japanese P2P because everybody rushes to post caps immediately after airing." That and ego-subbing have created a boom in the fansub scene for newer shows and faster releases. In the olden days, most fansubbers had to wait and shell out large sums of money (think $400-$600 before shipping) for Laserdisc releases before paying a translator and producing the subtitles. With that much money on the line, only the best of unacquired material came over. Even nowadays, most of the oldskool fansubbers prefer to buy their materials as it means getting the best source to work with plus coming as close to owning a real copy with subtitles as possble.

/eagerly awaiting his Goldran (1995) DVD box set

[Ananegg]

I'm a "neo otaku" and i think that Ranma 1/2 is one of the best, it's my fav.....

[The Fly]

I've always liked old school anime such as Speed Racer.. something I used to watch as a kid. I don't know if DBZ is considered old school, it was made in the 80's.. but I still love that too.

[Ananegg]

I've always liked old school anime such as Speed Racer.. something I used to watch as a kid. I don't know if DBZ is considered old school, it was made in the 80's.. but I still love that too.

don't forget MS: Gundam and Macross.

[Allogagan]

I think most would agree that Akira was a turning point for Anime. It was one of the first animes of modern times that a lot of americans seen for a first time. And as far as art style some would have two periods in anime, pre-Akira and post-Akira. Ranma 1/2 is Post-Akira, since Akira came out in Japan I believe in 1988 where Ranma 1/2 was 1989 (IMG:/biggrin.gif) .

[rx78]

I have seen a lot of older anime being released over the years via the "power house" ADV, which is why I respect them. I just don't think there is a huge market in Japan for the older series because the large number of anime being released over there, so that reflects America's market as well. There will always be the hardcore fans of the 70's and 80's, for me it's the nostalgia that intriques my interest, along with the hand painted, traditional art.

[aquamarine]

Another thing I'd like to throw out in this thread is why Japan chose to make revivals of older anime/manga series like Astro Boy, Cyborg Soldier 009, Black Jack, etc. It is more of a "these are the legends" feel, or a true marketing decision?

I have a hard time deciding, because I'm really not sure how the anime fans of Japan feel about the older series.

[iserlohn]

I just don't think there is a huge market in Japan for the older series because the large number of anime being released over there, so that reflects America's market as well.

Wrong.

In Japan, the major oldskool titles as well as a number of second stringers have all proven very popular on DVD, with Z Gundam being one of the best selling DVD box sets of all time.

The problem is that the Japanese don't know the American market very well and ask for a price that falls in line with the Japanese market rather than what the American one will support. These 'prestige titles' are a double edged sword to licensors as a result - do they bring over something which has a dedicated fanbase clamouring constantly for it, but which won't appeal to today's digital ink and paint bred consumers and risk losing lots of money? ADV's oldskool titles (Dunbine/Saint Seiya spec.) have sold horribly in this country except for with die-hard fans who already knew the shows. Gatchaman is doing decently, but that's exception to the rule as it falls into the nostalgia market for a lot of mainstream buyers.

[rx78]

So your saying that older titles are more popular then newer titles in general, and im not talking about Gundam cause I know how much it has had a impact in Japanese culture.

[LauraMW]

I don't think the new art is better at all- it's different. I would much prefer to watch something older than some of the new crap today. Then again, I'm put off by a lot of the "super hyper kawaii" characters and super bright colors. It's just not my thing. The most recent anime I really loved was Mahou Tsukai Tai.

But then again, Yamato (Starblazers) is among my favorites. It's not a nostalgia thing either, I only watched it a year or two ago.

[iserlohn]

So your saying that older titles are more popular then newer titles in general, and im not talking about Gundam cause I know how much it has had a impact in Japanese culture.

Not necessarily more popular, but that older titles which have become a firm fixture of Japanese pop culture history sell very well. You still get new titles that sell like mad (mostly Shounen Jump stuff) but older titles hold their own, especially since it's usually cheaper to buy an oldskool boxset than to collect all 13 volumes of the figure edition for some new property.

[rx78]

It explains all the remakes like: Cutey Honey, Harlock, Dirty Pair, Macross, Bubble Gum Crisis, Gatchaman, Doraemon, and of course Gundam. But I just dont think American fans in this generation repsect the older classic titles, but I can't really blame them. Which is why they don't sell well here, it's really a shame.

[aquamarine]

John from the 'Ask John' column at Animenation might have put it best, if what you guys are saying is true.

Maybe one of the bigger reasons that there isn't a better respect for old school anime is because the anime industy of America itself is fairly young in the comparison.

[iserlohn]

Maybe one of the bigger reasons that there isn't a better respect for old school anime is because the anime industy of America itself is fairly young in the comparison.

It's not just the industry, really. Most of the people heading the industry were in the fandom in the 80's and 90's and know what's good. As many people can attest to, though, what's good doesn't equate to what sells. The head of Media Blasters has said repeatedly that he finds Weiß Kreuz (Knight Hunters) to be one of the worst things he's ever seen, but it sells like mad. On the other hand, shows like Hajime no Ippo (Fighting Spirit) are remarkably well made and solid products that just don't appeal to what the fandom wants.

Why is this, you ask?

The answer really comes down to looks. Fans who are new to anime (ie newer than 2002, maybe 2001) have been raised on new shows, and all of them are done in the newer simplified for CG style. Digital Ink and Paint has fundamentally changed anime production, and the art styles along with it. As a result, the simpler designs of the 80's and 90's (which were easier to hand draw and paint over and over) look rough compared to modern ones (which are point manipulated or, on budget titles, have their inbetween cels autorendered) and the presence of film grain only serves to rub in the old look of titles made before the digital age. If you put a screenshot of something new next to an older show, the brighter CG colour palette and sharper lines are going to be far more eyecatching.

Besides the emphasis on cleaner, sharper lines, the emphasis on selling character merchandise has had a profound effect on character designs. Everybody wants the most loli girl on their goods or the biggest breasts (or in some horrid cases like Eiken, both) or the most waify bishounen so that otaku will buy merchandise. Compared to the more realistic designs of the 80's (one of the things that drew US fans to anime in the first place), they exploit a greater level of fantasy. Girls like Minmei, A-Ko, the Dirty Pair, and even the earlier incarnations of Cutie Honey just don't carry the same level of wank inspiration with today's fans, especially now that the constant challenge of outdoing levels of extremeness has only gotten steeper. (FWIW, the same is true of other areas of fanservice as well. A great example of this is the GaoGaiGar Final OVA where the already big and over the top designs and stock footage only grow to the point where the final GGG incarnation is beyond the point where sane people can suspend disbelief.)

Third, the market has changed. The US market is currently doing its best to follow and emulate Japan (as well as the current US business cycle) as close as possible in terms of getting product to market and making profit as fast as possible without regarding the long term consequences. This has affected the regular DVD markets as well: The best way to make new money, of course, is to bring out new product. As such, the shelf life of a new DVD has been shortened to weeks (if not days) instead of months, meaning that anything that lingers instead of selling like mad is returned as overstock and replaced with what's new that week. In the olden days, supply was lower, and titles had time to sit on shelves and gather buzz. Now, anybody looking to buy at a B&M store basically gets what's new and hot and little else because there's just no room to put it (that problem lies with licensing oversaturation combined with the aforementioned turnaround problem).

Alright, this has gotten too long and ranty. Sorry if there's confusing points, please ask for clarification and I'll do so when I get home from seeing Serenity tonight.

[Gremlich]

One comment I heard in a video room showing Captain Herlock was, after two gents only standing inside a few minutes, was "what's this?" then "Oh, it's old" (the offending parties then exited the room)

[aquamarine]

One comment I heard in a video room showing Captain Herlock was, after two gents only standing inside a few minutes, was "what's this?" then "Oh, it's old" (the offending parties then exited the room)

How rude. Some of Leiji Matsumoto's works can be considered great classics, especially Captain Harlock and Galaxy Express 999 (in this user's humble opinion).

But I digress. Does it sometimes seem that the younger (not taken in the literal) anime fans are the ones who sometimes fail to respect the greats? It's not such an unusual thing, since it is easy to take such things for granted when you are brought up by some of the modern marvels.

This might sound a bit ranty, but... I think if you are truly passionate about something, you should try to look both forward and backward. (It doesn't necessarily mean you have to like everything you see, but sometimes it helps. :wink: )

[DuelNatsuko]

I love old school anime. I wish it would be more popular with all these Narutos and Inuyashas and Bleach's around.

I really love Magical Princess Minky Momo, from the 70s/80s.

"it's old?!" Wow. Some people have no respect for Leiji Matsumoto's works. They are awesome, regardless of age

[rx78]

One comment I heard in a video room showing Captain Herlock was, after two gents only standing inside a few minutes, was "what's this?" then "Oh, it's old" (the offending parties then exited the room)

Thats really ironic, the same thing happened to me while i watching Astro boy. The only other people in the room besides me was four middle aged men, i was the only teen there.

[chocolate moonbu...]

Classics such as robotech, project ako, macross, astro boy, robot carnival, venus wars, are considered some of my favorite classics. I mean these are the classics that anime fans like us grew up with. Sure its old school, but its amazing what people could do back then with just a paper and pencil, and maybe some paint.
There was more of a personal satisfaction involved within the parameters of painting cells, and constantly paying attention to detail so that their are less screw up, and things flow more like water today.
In the day and age of computers, the cost of production went down, alot of things were lost in the process. There is not that much apperciation for the process anymore and people think that it is small potatoes compared to today. However the positive side of computers is that you are able to start and produce your own animated series without having to pay hundreds of people in the process. So yes there is a down side and negative side to introduction of computers in animation.

[VemberJudgement]

The Unicdo movies, Macross, Ranma 1/2, Nadia....Yuppers, seems I'm all about the old school lately. Although Gantz and Elfen Lied have me hot and bothered lately:)

[chocolate moonbu...]

Astro boy will always live to rock on for old school anime. That one of the best series that was ever produced today.

[khandosha]

Im big fan of retro anime Saint Seiya, Mazinger, Yamato, SD Gundam, Dunbine, Astro Boy!

[pakopako]

They'd better be, or else I'll be with the rest of the Stormtroopers!

-=PakoPako=-

[OtakonOtaku]

Older anime is hard if not imposable to find on DVD ( or even vhs for that mater) personaly I love blackjack and I'm surprise dthat it came on OnDemand at all ( I didn't realise that it was that old) but heres my theroy

The newer stuff is easier to find! your local book store or DVD place is not going to stock things that do not sell. on average people wgen glancing over things see big stuff the more of it that is the more likly they are to pick it. Inuyasha takes up the most room at my local bestbuy when I went there looking for the latest Ah! My Goddess disk it wasn't there. they'll get in 7 copies of the new Inuyasha and 3-0 of ah my goddess.

when they start showing the older stuff on TV ( ondemand doesn't count) and putting it on DVD people will go buy it.