Pro-JECT: Bringing JRock to the East Coast

[JrockVisualism 0]

Hello all, my name is Samantha a.k.a _Tsukiko_ (on JrockRevolution Forums) a.k.a JrockVisualism (Otakon forums). I am a member of the new street team known as Pro-JECT (Pro-Jrock on the East CoasT). Long story short, here is our mission statement:

As you probably know by now, Japanese pop culture is steadily growing in the United States. There are thousands of dedicated fans all over the United States. Each day there are more that pop up.

In the past few years, there have been many Japanese artists to take the stage stateside. Jrock Revolution was a successful Los Angeles based festival. Pacific Media Expo is a convention that hosts Asian acts each year. At Anime Expo 2007 Japanese rock super group S.K.I.N. debuted. What about the other half of the United States?

In 2003 American anime convention Otakon hosted T.M. Revolution for his debut United States performance. The following year, L

[alabaster 0]

I really, really hope you get the success you want. We're certainly trying to do all we can here at Otakon. We've got some stuff in the works for the future too.

But the realities of overseas performance and the logistics and costs involved will *always* favor the west coast.

I'm always dubious about the usefulness of letter-writing campaigns. Physical letters *do* have an effect; email and internet petitions are beyond useless.

[kaki 0]

Skeptical? Don

Edited June 19, 2008 by kaki

[JrockVisualism 0]

I really, really hope you get the success you want. We're certainly trying to do all we can here at Otakon. We've got some stuff in the works for the future too.

But the realities of overseas performance and the logistics and costs involved will *always* favor the west coast.

I'm always dubious about the usefulness of letter-writing campaigns. Physical letters *do* have an effect; email and internet petitions are beyond useless.

[JrockVisualism 0]

Skeptical? Don

[PyronIkari 0]

See, here's the thing. Most of the bands play in California because they have ties in California. Yoshiki lives in California (I've actually seen him shopping at Nijiya). Hyde performed in California because he was in California for a different reason and so they planned it to happen.

You coulda listed a bunch of other bands, like how the Pillows do a US tour all the time, how Ellegarden did a tour of the states everywhere EXCEPT California(though they did come here a few months later).

Here's the major thing. Although Japanese culture is growing in popularity in the states... the numbers are far different. Since you pointed out Taiwan. Your average Taiwanese person is exposed to Japanese music/culture constantly. They can tell you what and who is popular in Japan at the moment. They can tell you what movies are coming out, the latest trends, and even what the music charts look like.

Your average American "fan" doesn't know jack crap about the state of music etc. in Japan. For one, Gackt isn't even very popular in Japan. He never was. Sure he has fans, and a cult fandom, but that doesn't mean he's popular realistically. Miyavi isn't even popular in Japan at all really. I wouldn't be suprised if he has more fans in the US than he does in Japan(okay hyperbole but you get the point).

Now we go into logistics. Is it worth coming to the states? Let's take something that has more mainstream appeal and capabilities. Puffy(Ami/Yumi). They did the theme for Teen Titans and a lot of stuff for Cartoon Network. Their concert barely hit 1000 people that I went to. Elle's concert that I went to was only like 500. Polysics concerts I've been to were around the same.

Now to book a venue fly to the states, bring their sound people, their equipment, and everything else... realistically they would be LOSING quite a bit of money to perform in the states. The only reason to do it, would be to build popularity if they plan on releasing albums in the states and trying to make it in the US.

I had a long conversation with a friend recently about Japanese bands comparatively to the US fanbase. The US fanbase likes mostly unpopular/decently popular bands in Japan(in terms of rock music, not pop). L'arc is still popular, but they never were that huge, as to how most US fans think they are.

So while the idea is nice, and I would personally like to see a lot of JP bands, it's unrealistic especially in this point of time. Honestly, you have a lot of homework to do before you really attempt something like this. A very strong understanding of the JP music industry and it's current state would do wonders. In retrospect, it would take Japanese music to become more mainstream and American fans to be far less ignorant. Until then, I won't hold my breath to see a lot of the bands I like here.

[greygula 0]

Skeptical? Don

[rotinoma 2]

They can tell you what and who is popular in Japan at the moment. They can tell you what movies are coming out, the latest trends, and even what the music charts look like.

[PyronIkari 0]

I don't know about that.

Point is made about the cultural ties of Taiwan but it is more notable as a peculiar case, so Japanese media in Taiwan not a good example for international marketing. At the same time, Taiwan is already the next stop outside Japan in terms of the reach of the media market, where as the US is a totally new, untouched territory for the most part. There is still plenty of incentive for Japanese media to get going in the US, no matter west or east coast. It's just a matter of cost to bridge the gap, and figuring out how to do it.

In order to grow awareness and make more fans, fans over here should get it going and organize something to help that, which is what I see of this letter campaign. Action does speak louder than words and you should never underestimate the NY media market Of course it's not easy and it will be a long process, but that's where it starts.

[rotinoma 2]

The Taiwan (and China in general, slowly)/Japan/Korea thing is peculiar in that I don't think it happens with another media market anywhere else. Perhaps it has to do with how they were all heavily influenced by the way Americans do business during their reconstruction era, I'm guessing.

The US isn't totally new and untouched. A lot of JP bands have been promoted in the US for years now. Last I checked L'arc's 13 Best Clicked was marketed and sold in the US nationally. Wanna guess how well it did? Even if you look at JP cartoons/comics and other such stuff. They *SEEM* popular because you are associated with the circles that recognize them. Your average American won't know jack about them. So you'd be marketing to an extremely niche group. The market in New York? Yeah sure, it's the same as California. But these are centralized areas. California, New York, maybe small parts of Seattle. Outside of there, there is no market at all. And even within these markets, it is still extremely niche.

Edited June 19, 2008 by rotinoma

[PyronIkari 0]

What do you think "a totally new, untouched territory for the most part" mean?

Do you really think the average American even had contact with any kind of marketing from L'arc's US-sold album? What kind of a band is L'arc anyways?

Also, it depends on a lot of factors. If we talk about bands like DeG then it is closer to bands like Mono or World's End Girlfriend--fringe music genre, but they're known globally (sells equally well/badly wherever they go) by fans of that genre of music. Groups like ELT however are mass marketing operations, so where the marketing doesn't reach, you won't have any fans. And all I think you are saying is that some of that marketing leaked over to the rest of the world (in this context, attached to anime), and inadvertently created pockets of fans here and there.

But I think no matter how you want to say or what you want to say, it's about fans raising up more fans if you're outside the media market. Nothing wrong with organizing and writing letters, just don't raise false hopes.

[lambogirl 0]

It's possible.. I mean don't just sit there and complain about do something about it. (and I don't mean just sending out letters)

[omo 0]

And this also spreads ignorance. Blind fans that don't know anything preaching to new fans who will follow what the blind fans say. As I said... they need to be less ignorant. Trying to spread the word about JP Music when most of the people that think they know JP music, it's state etc. don't. The advocates of JP music barely know anything about the culture they supposedly they're fans of.

And just to add since it was kind of unclear.

Also, the state of music in Japan concerning agencies, record labels and the such. Who to get into contact with. You know bands are just pawns of their agency (and other key players). Even if a band thinks it might be a good idea, they might not get the okay to do a concert in the states.

Edited June 20, 2008 by omo

[JrockVisualism 0]

Okay, I think we can cut it out with the whole 'ignorance' stuff. Honestly, I posted this here to see if we could recruit more fans and to see if we could raise awarness to the average person. That's part of our goal. To try and get the average person to listen to the music. Please stop calling us and other fans 'ignorant' just because we would like to go against the odds. Regardless of how small/big/divided/'old fashion' the fanbase is, it still exists. We are still here whether you like it or not, and our artists deffinately like it.

We are not just sending out letters to artists. We're also going to be using word of mouth/internet/graphics etc etc etc to raise awareness among the general people. We also plan to contact concert halls, radio stations and other various places to show that there is a fanbase here on the east coast. There are other plans as well, but we are still in the beginning stages. What we're doing is better than sitting and complaining. It takes a spark to make something huge happen and that's what we are. The spark. The Jrock Revolution IS happening whether you know it or not.

Edited June 20, 2008 by JrockVisualism

[PyronIkari 0]

Okay, I think we can cut it out with the whole 'ignorance' stuff. Honestly, I posted this here to see if we could recruit more fans and to see if we could raise awarness to the average person. That's part of our goal. To try and get the average person to listen to the music. Please stop calling us and other fans 'ignorant' just because we would like to go against the odds. Regardless of how small/big/divided/'old fashion' the fanbase is, it still exists. We are still here whether you like it or not, and our artists deffinately like it.

[JrockVisualism 0]

I'm not calling you ignorant for "going against the odds". I'm calling fans ignorant of the music industry and the state of music in Japan. Because frankly, that's what they are. Fans that are stuck in the music genres of Japan's mid-90's. Visual-Kei hasn't been popular in Japan really since the 90's and it was only remotely popular then. People think "J-Rock" is Visual-Kei and don't realize that it is only a very small minority of Japan's rock scene. Japan's rock scene isn't even very big to begin with. Now you're asking average Americans to like Visual-kei? You're about 25 years too late to do that. Glam Rock virtually died in the 80s.

Average people won't care. "Why would I listen to this when I can't understand it." and "Why would I listen to this when it's just a copy of American/UK music". Which they're right about btw.

A fanbase exists, yes... and? That's supposed to mean something? As I said. First, learn about the music industry before you try to teach others about it.

Edited June 20, 2008 by JrockVisualism

[alabaster 0]

Actually, it's VERY rare for Japanese bands to be independent -- most are creations of their label, and they can't hum in public on the subway without permission. (Not that anyone hums on subways in Tokyo anyway.)

Yoshiki is one of those rare examples of someone who *isn't* controlled by his label. He was basically out of circulation for a while and the timing was right. We reached out through a mutual friend and the stars somehow aligned -- but don't think for a moment that it's EVER that simple.

There have been a few occasions over the past five years where we had a band who was interested and management who was reasonably supportive, but the label wasn't able to make the economics work. A concert of any size -- especially an Arena concert -- typically has a price tag that would pay for about half of Otakon, and that's just the logistical stuff. Smaller club shows work as part of a tour, but then of course the band is making money off merchandise and a cut of the tickets. Either can work as part of a marketing plan for the band, but there's a lot of risk involved.

Flying in to do a one-off show for a major Japanese act? That's verging on the ludicrous, but somehow we've managed to pull it off a few times. L'Arc had just reunited and were tied to a huge anime property, and were on a label that was kicking off a US distribution subsidiary. Geneon USA used to bring folks over too. Unfortunately both of those entities are gone, because they simply weren't selling enough to justify the marketing costs. As a result other labels are a bit more cautious, especially with the tanking US economy, weak dollar, and stagnant sales among the core market. Also, there's more competition for musical acts then there was five years ago, and that has complicated the situation because some smaller cons have blown their budget to bring in a middle-tier touring act. Expectations are all over the place -- but luckily the smarter cons have tried to learn from us, or from a small number of other conventions who've done things right.

At this point, our reputation and existing contacts and relationships are what brings bands to Otakon. We don't just throw money at them (our budget gets eaten up by facilities and travel expenses), but we are upfront about what to expect and we make very sure that we meet our obligations. Consequently, we're a less risky proposition with a pretty big audience reach, and the bands can usually count on making back at least some of their expenses through merchandising. And they hope that, having discovered a new band through Otakon, you'll continue to buy that band's stuff -- on iTunes, in stores, etc.

However, anime fans aren't buying enough anime to keep established companies afloat. J-pop and J-rock fans are not buying enough CDs to support heavily backed US subsidiaries. I overheard someone in line at the SKIN show last year at AX brag about having over fifty albums by the various members of SKIN -- and they were proud of having not had to pay for any of them. They thought they were supporting Yoshiki and Miyavi and Gackt by stealing their music, distributing it freely, and making "internet shrines" filled with photos.

I had to bite my tongue and walk away. Hell, this is someone I've actually hung out with getting ripped off here. (It's even more painful for anything Madhouse works on, because I have so many friends there, including the founder.) But I digress.

So again -- the most important thing you can do to attract musical acts is NOT write letters, but actually BUY stuff. Buy the CDs and DVDs. Buy the merchandise. Join the fan clubs. In short, the bands, like their management and labels, may very well be generally supportive of US fans, but they're only going to INVEST here if they see profit, because making money is the primary goal of any business.

By all means, do the letter writing -- NOT emails or virtual petitions, but real letters on nice paper -- but back it up with actions that will actually matter to the decisionmakers. Buy stuff, and tell them you're buying stuff, and promise to buy more stuff if they show up in the US. That at least has a shot of working.

[Shiro420 0]

Actually, it's VERY rare for Japanese bands to be independent -- most are creations of their label, and they can't hum in public on the subway without permission. (Not that anyone hums on subways in Tokyo anyway.)

Yoshiki is one of those rare examples of someone who *isn't* controlled by his label. He was basically out of circulation for a while and the timing was right. We reached out through a mutual friend and the stars somehow aligned -- but don't think for a moment that it's EVER that simple.

There have been a few occasions over the past five years where we had a band who was interested and management who was reasonably supportive, but the label wasn't able to make the economics work. A concert of any size -- especially an Arena concert -- typically has a price tag that would pay for about half of Otakon, and that's just the logistical stuff. Smaller club shows work as part of a tour, but then of course the band is making money off merchandise and a cut of the tickets. Either can work as part of a marketing plan for the band, but there's a lot of risk involved.

Flying in to do a one-off show for a major Japanese act? That's verging on the ludicrous, but somehow we've managed to pull it off a few times. L'Arc had just reunited and were tied to a huge anime property, and were on a label that was kicking off a US distribution subsidiary. Geneon USA used to bring folks over too. Unfortunately both of those entities are gone, because they simply weren't selling enough to justify the marketing costs. As a result other labels are a bit more cautious, especially with the tanking US economy, weak dollar, and stagnant sales among the core market. Also, there's more competition for musical acts then there was five years ago, and that has complicated the situation because some smaller cons have blown their budget to bring in a middle-tier touring act. Expectations are all over the place -- but luckily the smarter cons have tried to learn from us, or from a small number of other conventions who've done things right.

At this point, our reputation and existing contacts and relationships are what brings bands to Otakon. We don't just throw money at them (our budget gets eaten up by facilities and travel expenses), but we are upfront about what to expect and we make very sure that we meet our obligations. Consequently, we're a less risky proposition with a pretty big audience reach, and the bands can usually count on making back at least some of their expenses through merchandising. And they hope that, having discovered a new band through Otakon, you'll continue to buy that band's stuff -- on iTunes, in stores, etc.

However, anime fans aren't buying enough anime to keep established companies afloat. J-pop and J-rock fans are not buying enough CDs to support heavily backed US subsidiaries. I overheard someone in line at the SKIN show last year at AX brag about having over fifty albums by the various members of SKIN -- and they were proud of having not had to pay for any of them. They thought they were supporting Yoshiki and Miyavi and Gackt by stealing their music, distributing it freely, and making "internet shrines" filled with photos.

I had to bite my tongue and walk away. Hell, this is someone I've actually hung out with getting ripped off here. (It's even more painful for anything Madhouse works on, because I have so many friends there, including the founder.) But I digress.

So again -- the most important thing you can do to attract musical acts is NOT write letters, but actually BUY stuff. Buy the CDs and DVDs. Buy the merchandise. Join the fan clubs. In short, the bands, like their management and labels, may very well be generally supportive of US fans, but they're only going to INVEST here if they see profit, because making money is the primary goal of any business.

By all means, do the letter writing -- NOT emails or virtual petitions, but real letters on nice paper -- but back it up with actions that will actually matter to the decisionmakers. Buy stuff, and tell them you're buying stuff, and promise to buy more stuff if they show up in the US. That at least has a shot of working.

I've also encounted people who think they are "supporting" bands and anime companies by stealing their stuff, or "getting it for free" as they put it, and it's disgusting, it's really no wonder Geneon and Tofu tanked.

Really, cd sales are one of the most important things to a foreign band. If they actually see they have a market here (if they can actually sell products and make a profit from said sales) then they might actually show interest in coming here. Were lucky that you guys have established yourselves as being reliable to be able to get some of these bands.

I'm curious about one thing though, I know Hawaii has a decent japanese population, do they get a good amount of acts?

I've never really seen that many rock bands at the top of the oricon charts, and spots on the oricon come and go so quickly, really you are popular if you can hold a top spot on the oricon for more than a week.

Edited June 20, 2008 by Shiro420

[JrockVisualism 0]

I've also encounted people who think they are "supporting" bands and anime companies by stealing their stuff, or "getting it for free" as they put it, and it's disgusting, it's really no wonder Geneon and Tofu tanked.

Really, cd sales are one of the most important things to a foreign band. If they actually see they have a market here (if they can actually sell products and make a profit from said sales) then they might actually show interest in coming here. Were lucky that you guys have established yourselves as being reliable to be able to get some of these bands.

I'm curious about one thing though, I know Hawaii has a decent japanese population, do they get a good amount of acts?

I've never really seen that many rock bands at the top of the oricon charts, and spots on the oricon come and go so quickly, really you are popular if you can hold a top spot on the oricon for more than a week.

[kaki 0]

I'm not quite sure if Hawaii gets a lot of acts. I don't think they do though. I can look it up, but I'm going away for a few days and won't be able to check until I get back.

I try to check the oricon charts on and off, but it comes off as jibberish on my computer. o.0

Edited June 20, 2008 by kaki

[theshaggyfreak 0]

So again -- the most important thing you can do to attract musical acts is NOT write letters, but actually BUY stuff. Buy the CDs and DVDs. Buy the merchandise. Join the fan clubs. In short, the bands, like their management and labels, may very well be generally supportive of US fans, but they're only going to INVEST here if they see profit, because making money is the primary goal of any business.

By all means, do the letter writing -- NOT emails or virtual petitions, but real letters on nice paper -- but back it up with actions that will actually matter to the decisionmakers. Buy stuff, and tell them you're buying stuff, and promise to buy more stuff if they show up in the US. That at least has a shot of working.

[PyronIkari 0]

Not to condone the stealing of music (I'm a music artist myself) but the difficult part with people in the USA buying J-rock and J-pop CDs/DVDs is that it's hella-expensive to import a lot of things. Also, the advertisement of said products (as well as anime) isn't as big as it could be. I could go on and on that subject but that's a big can of worms. I think it's great that more and more albums are becoming available on iTunes but not enough people know about it. I found a number of people who were surprised that Larc~en~ciel's last album is available there (the re-release of their first album Dune is there now too).

[DuelNatsuko 0]

My friends and I are doing a similar thing for the Midwest. Just to get the word out and get more records sold in this region.

-Waka (Jrock Revolution Forums)

[JrockVisualism 0]

My friends and I are doing a similar thing for the Midwest. Just to get the word out and get more records sold in this region.

-Waka (Jrock Revolution Forums)

[DuelNatsuko 0]

So far we have our small group of people, and I'm looking for more staff (even if they aren't in the midwest) as we speak. I need to start on building a website, but I have someone (aurora_ookami on jrock revolution) who is gonna write some concert reviews. And I'm gonna ask a friend to do jrock graphics for us.

Maybe I am in too deep. o.o

[JrockVisualism 0]

So far we have our small group of people, and I'm looking for more staff (even if they aren't in the midwest) as we speak. I need to start on building a website, but I have someone (aurora_ookami on jrock revolution) who is gonna write some concert reviews. And I'm gonna ask a friend to do jrock graphics for us.

Maybe I am in too deep. o.o

[theshaggyfreak 0]

... Things cost money. You can't justify or even bring that up as a reason/excuse. But just for reference

http://www.amazon.co.jp/%E2%80%99s-wonderf...SJ7BSAE8MSFFQBQ

It's on sale... for 2779yen. roughly 27$. Usually about 30$. In the US I can get import cds for ROUGHLY the same price. I can get JP Overseas albums(albums for Taiwan and the such) for about 14$ US.

I hate when people bring up price at all, because frankly it's cheap here. In Japan a DVD is around 30-60$ and the content is about half of what we get in the states. A set of 1 season of a random anime series... is about 300$. In the US... people complain when it's over a 100$.

If you can't afford media, you don't deserve to own it. It's not rocket science.